In this episode Mariana interviewed Elle Chante, a UK based musician exploring the reality of complex mental health and disability into her work.
You can listen to the episode, recorded in May, with the audio player embedded below. There is also a transcription underneath.
Transcription of the podcast episode:
Mariana: Hi everyone, welcome to this new episode of the DARCI podcast, the podcast on Disability, Accessibility and Representation in the Creative Industries. My name is Mariana López and I’m a professor in sound production and post-production at the University of York. And I’m delighted today to be joined by our guest, Elle Chante. Elle Chante is a musical self-expressionist based in the West Midlands UK. Filled by her experiences, she threads her reality of complex mental health and disability into her work. She began to develop her artistic practice as a means of processing personal trauma and the ethos of music as therapy has remained integral to her work. Her music has been described as a etherial, emotiv, and soothing. In 2018, she worked as the co-creator of a theater piece called Seasick which combined her music with a performance poetry to explore relationships between chronic illness and the natural world. For Seasick she composed five original songs to be performed alongside poetry and monologue, last performed in October 2021 at the Belgrade Theatre, Coventry, and supported by Arts Council England. Elle began producing music in 2020, aiming to create more authenticity in her tracks. She released her first produced EP in September 2022, titled Into the Night. To date, the songs she has featured on have a masked more than seven million streams on Spotify alone. In June 2022, Elle was asked to create a piece for the Commonwealth Games album on record B 2022. She released Dynasty alongside a music video, aiming to put into words some of the dreams that artists in Birmingham have and how much the correct infrastructure would help the scene to thrive. Funded by Arts Council England, Elle has recently created an accessible performance practice after struggling to get back into music performance as having more complex health in 2017. Then most recently, she was commissioned to create sound design for an up-and-coming podcast by Poppy Greenfield, titled Call Me Disabled. Alongside her creative work, Elle also advocates for disabled artists in the music industry, particularly those with variable or invisible illnesses. She’s an ambassador of Attitude is Everything and the featured artist’s collision, as well as being a co-founder of Radical Body, an arts organisation that aims to make careers in the arts more accessible for disabled people. In 2023, Elle was invited to play the PRS for music stage at Glastonbury Festival.
Mariana: Elle, thank you so much for joining us for today’s episode. It’s really great to have you. How are you doing?
Elle: Oh, I’m doing good. I’m super happy to be here. Very interested. Yeah, thank you for having me.
Mariana: Thank you. So the first thing I thought we could do is, well, ask you about your work and how we connect to aspects of disability and accessibility. So just like a broad introduction.
Mariana: So I always styled my kind of music as a means of therapy, basically, and have experienced quite a spectrum of different mental health and physical health conditions over the years. And I guess that kind of meant that it was already ingrained in my art from the get-go in terms of how I like to express and what I was expressing about. And then as I got more into sort of the disabled community, as I started identifying as disabled, I really started to think about how can I serve this community and do I want to make a gig that I would not actually be able to attend to this sort of thing? So I guess it all kind of came from that angle, essentially. But yeah, my music is an ambient mish-mash of a few different genres, just kind of inspired by authenticity and feeling.
Mariana: Oh, thank you very much. What is the best way to listen to your music and access your work? I’m on Spotify. That’s probably the best way that most of my stuff is on there. But there’s also bits and bobs on SoundCloud, YouTube, etc. But yeah, Amazon. The normal stores. [both laughing] Yeah.
Mariana: Perfect, perfect. People need to go and listen to your work. After listening to the podcast or before, that’s fine. One of the things that I was reading about your work is that in addition to all the artistic work you do, you also spend time advocating for disabled artists in the music industry. And your co-ambassador for Attitude is Everything and the Featured artists’ Coalition. I was wondering if you could tell us what these organisations are about for those that aren’t familiar with them, but also what is your role within them and what was your motivation to get involved?
Elle: So my motivation to get involved, I guess, came from, I did an interview with an organisation called Girl Grind and it was just sort of broadly talking about my health and music and what music was like for me. And Attitude is Everything saw that and kind of asked me, if I would be interested in being a co-ambassador, I said yes. both laughing] And it kind of just started from there. Attitude is Everything does some amazing work, helping venues to be more accessible for artists, artists and audience members. So they’ve done various campaigns over the years to raise more awareness for the barriers that disabled artists and audience members experience. And then also like actually work with venues to like problem solve some of the issues that they might be having. And yeah, just trying to, you know, make a lot of bad plays [[please check]]. [both laughing] I think I do a good job. Yeah. And the Featured Artist Coalition, it’s sort of like an artist representation organisation I’d say, but they talk on behalf of a lot of like issues that might be affecting artists such as touring problems when they’re EU stuff and the, oh, what do you call it? The, the, when touring became more difficult because of the, yeah, all the political stuff that I do not have the words to explain, yes. [both laughing] That sort of thing basically, and they’re very active on that front. They’re really like ready to back artists. So I guess in my work with them, I have done like some talks at events with them and sort of fed back about issues that disabled artists are facing. And yeah, just kind of giving my perspective, like, my disabled perspective. The arts and music and what it’s like and things that need to change, which was very interesting over COVID [both laughing] and still continues to be very interesting. Yes. So basically, that’s what I do on that front.
Mariana: Oh, really, really interesting. And I have a follow up question because it’s really interesting that you talked about the accessibility of venues for events, for gigs. And I was wondering, are there any kind of top issues that in your experience come up that venues particularly struggle with?
Elle: Um, I think I’m not 100% sure from the venues point of view, but I do know that there are from the artist point of view, there’s, there’s often audience access, but there’s not artist access, which is really complicated and maybe a bit uncomfortable. In ways that mean that, you know, there might be step free access into the venue, but there’s not step free access to the stage. Um, yeah, and, um, I don’t know. I think that says a bit of something about something.
Mariana: Yes, I think so, yes.
Elle: Yeah. I think I know it looks like it’s good, but it’s actuality it’s a little, … not quite there. Um, so I think there’s, there’s a bit of, um, I think sometimes knowing where to consider and who to consider and how is maybe a little bit difficult for venues sometimes. And Attitude is Everything did a really great campaign called Just Ask, which was about the venues asking the artists like, do you need this? Do you need this? Um, rather than the artists coming in and being like, and do you have a disabled toilet like that I can use in the dressing room? Um, you know, having to like, ask all those really awkward questions, which, um, is barrier to entry, basically. Um, and the venues just coming forward and, you know, like, disclosure straight away, oh, we have this, and we have that, or we could help you unpack, like, you know, um, that just makes it a little bit easier on the artist, basically. That’s one of the issues.
Mariana: No, that’s really, really interesting. And, and while you were, you were explaining this, I was thinking how much, … I go to a lot of events that are about research on disability and accessibility. And then it’s interesting as you were speaking I was thinking that absolutely, there’s so much more research on audiences that there is on actually accessibility for artists. And absolutely, I completely [agree], with what you said. Your absolute right, those assumptions that come with the fact that people are not thinking about disabled artists only as, as spectators of an experience. Um, and yes, the, the fact that I imagine, you know, it can be quite stressful for artists, did they feel they have to cope with a list of requirements rather than someone saying actually we have this, you don’t have to worry about it.
Elle: Yeah.
Mariana: And is there something that you would recommend for disabled artists that they can do to navigate what would seem to be quite a complicated set set of kind of limitations for venues. Do you have any advice that how they can advocate for themselves and also kind of work with venues so that they can have, you know, a great experience.
Elle: Yeah. I think I would say if you can get a access point of contact at the venue, that always really helps. It kind of helps to have somebody else sort of going to, oh, yeah, let me ask, let me ask, blah, blah, and then, whereas, if you don’t have that, that can be really difficult. And, um, it’s something that’s hard to attain if there isn’t one. Um, but if there is one, it’s always good to kind of get that sort of, you’ve got a friend at the venue. [both laughing] Your friend at the venue knows what you’re having difficulties with. And like, they know who to ask rather than you having to like, ask John the technician about this thing that you asked for. And then go and ask, you know, Lucy about doing … sort of flying around everywhere when you really probably should be resting or preparing for your gig. Um, so I find that to be helpful. I would say, um, going fast and hard on the access front is so intimidating. Sometimes it really is. With an access rider, you know, I still would write in it. I still struggle sending it. An access rider is basically a list of, um, requirements or things that you might need to help you with your work. For example, uh, if the gig goes until 11 p.m. or wherever, I may need a hotel to stay the night after for my health. Please make sure, like, … One of mine is, … because I’ve got a condition that means I can pass out when I change posture. I’m like, please make sure there are seats in the area that I can rest on. Um, and that there’s always water like nearby. Um, so I don’t get dehydrated as that would make it more difficult for my health. Um, and these don’t necessarily mean that you have to say what your condition is because like, in disability, community. Or I don’t know, society and in a way interacts with disability, it always feels like you have to be like, I have da, da, da. So please, can you give me blah, blah, blah. in this like ‘proving yourself culture’. Which has been forced on us by non-disabled structures. Um, basically, so you don’t have to do that in an access rider. You can just say, I need this. Yeah, even though it’s quite intimidating to like go in and have like, a list of requirements for what you need. Um, and even though it can be quite hard sometimes, just like mentally to sit down and write it out and think, Oh gosh, actually, that does make me feel a bit uncomfortable if I don’t have such and such. Um, and that would be difficult. And a lot of the time there’s this like, I mean, I can do it. It’s just going to be really rubbish for me. [both laughing] Um, and it’s kind of like trying to avoid that, that like overwhelming stressful situation. Like, if there’s a chance that you might be able to get the help with it. Um, and then you might come back and be like, Oh, sorry, we don’t have budget for yada yada, but we can do such and such. Like, And it just kind of opens conversations and helps to get the help basically. That would be my probably number one thing aside from the having the in-person if you can. Um, and it’s even better if you know you, there’s an access person at the venue that you can send your access rider to and then they know what they need to tell whoever is, um, to make sure that you kind of being looked after. That’s the ideal world. [laughin]
Mariana: No, that’s a great tip. It’s the first time I hear about access riders and that’s just really interesting. Um, and it’s a really great, great tip because as I liked what you said as well, it’s about that opening up of conversations that someone reading it might have thought, Oh, you know, we never thought about this, but actually, you know, once they are able to apply something for one person, they’re likely to, I imagine, or I hope they’re likely to be able to offer it to other people without, you know, thinking even much about it. Um, yeah. And are there, are there any resources online that people can access to help them write them or is it just about kind of just being clear about what someone needs?
Elle: I would recommend the Musician’s Union, the Creating Your Own Access Rider.
Mariana: Um, okay. Cool. No, that’s really good. So that people can, can go there and access. But thank you so much for the tip. That’s really, really, really useful. And it’s, it’s kind of the first time we’ve, in this podcast, we’ve had a conversation around them and I think it’s, it’s good for, for both, you know, disabled artists to know that that’s something that can open up conversations, but also for venues or people managing venues listening, this can be really hopefully, opening up their own thought processes as to what they can, they can do. Um, and the first time I came across your work with actually through the Unlimited website, that is a favorite website of mine for kind of looking at different art commissions that they have been supported. And you worked, um, on an artistic piece titled Accessible Dreamscapes, which is a great title. Um, and it was, uh, commissioned by Unlimited and the Glass House International Centre for Music. And I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about the piece?
Elle: Yeah. So, um, the piece is basically, it’s like a multimedia, um, story of like my lived experience through my music and in my music. Um, so it kind of talks about my, um, sort of where I was at when I was writing different songs through the years and sort of how my health like evolved through that time. Um, while sort of creating this sort of dreamy environment, um, and, uh, it acts as being like the focus point of all of it, like from disabled experience and trying to, um, cater to other disabled audiences. It is a performance and it’s also like a massive learning experience for me and the team, um, to just like learn more about, um, different conditions and how we can like include communities as much as possible. Yes. So how we can include different communities and also what different different communities find interesting, um, because I feel like there’s something really interesting about art and how experiences shape art. Um, and I feel like without the access, um, to be able to experience and create art as disabled people, um, that we’re actually shortening the art, like, the sector basically. Because we’re going to have like loads of interesting and different perspectives things that other people might not have. Um, and yeah, so it was all about sort of like a giant mixing part of access and creativity, dance, music, um, yeah, inclusive environment, um, it’s chill. It’s like quite, quite chilled out. So there’s bean bag spaces and stuff at the bottom, um, wheelchair, um, spaces, kids eating, you know, we’re really trying to just make it like comfortable for people to come and experience experiences, [laughing] basically.
Mariana: And is it available at the moment? Can people go and experience it?
Elle: Yes. Um, so the show is, um, coming out on the 6th of June I believe.
Mariana: Um, yes, cool! Yeah, at the Glass House. Not long now. Um, and, um, yeah, I’m super excited for it. We’re still, um, like putting things together. It’s been a really interesting process because I was diagnosed with cancer, um, as I started the project.
Mariana: OK.
Elle: That was like whole new perspective. Whoa! [laughing] And also like dealing with cancer treatment while working on a project, like a really important to me projects. And it was like, Oh, gosh. Um, so, um, yeah, everything’s been quite, um, what’s the right word? [Mariana laughing] Like variable, I guess.
Mariana: Okay.
Elle: Yeah. And, um, open. And I actually think my health [[please check]] has been pretty good before the show, because, you know, if it, like, comes to the show and, um, I decide not to do something in a way that I normally would, because of my health conditions on the day, then a go. [[please check]] That’s the same old, like, experience. So, yeah, it’s, it’s just about being like really honest and kind of hopefully sparking conversations about health and, I don’t know, and yeah, trying to make it a bit easier to talk about these things. Yeah.
Elle: And it’s really, it’s really great that you brought this up because as well, you know, uh, it’s important that people, um, kind of disabled artists also kind of hear that you don’t have to push yourself through things that if something needs to change because, you know, circumstances have changed, it’s absolutely, as you say, it’s absolutely important that people listen to themselves and change things accordingly to how they, how they feel, uh, depending on how they feel.
Elle: Absolutely.
Mariana: So, so another top tip, I think.
Elle: Yes. Yeah.
Mariana: And, um, so the show opens on the 6th of June and how long will it be running for?
Elle: So it’s just one like one night for now. We are looking at, um, potentially having some other performances at a later date. But it, there’ll also be a online showing, um, which we haven’t got a day for yet. So the whole piece will be recorded so people can’t make it. Oh, you know, cozy in bed at the time of the performance that they can watch it from that bed, uh, later date.
Mariana: Oh, that’s perfect! You anticipated my next question. Because I think this podcast episode might come out after the, okay.
Elle: Right.
Mariana: Yes. So, uh, if that’s the case, then people can access, if they haven’t been able to make it, access the recording.
Elle: Yes. Yeah.
Mariana: And where, do you know when, um, where they will be able to find this recording?
Elle: Um, we’re not 100% sure yet. It’s likely to be like a live recording after the date, but on a particular day. Um, but there will be a showing in London in September, I think.
Mariana: And, um, if people follow your social media accounts, is that a good way to keep up to date? Yes, please do. Um, I post all things health, um, super open about if anybody’s interested in what having cancer at 25 is like, you can find out on my Instagram. [laughing] Yeah. Um, and show bits, of course as well. So yes, please, please keep in touch.
Mariana: Which social media platforms do you use? And do you have any handles you’d like to share so that people can look you up?
Elle: So I’m mostly on, um, Instagram is like my main one. I’m a quite visual person, I suppose, um, get quite anxious about typing things. Um, and then, I also have Facebook and X and, uh, yeah, those are my main ones. I’ve also started a Ko-fi, um, if anybody’s interested in that, where I like post more stuff that’s about to come out or sneak peeks or things. So that people can have a say and some of my art stuff. [[please check]] Yeah, have a look.
Mariana: Oh, that’s great..
Elle: My handle is @ellechanteuk
Mariana: Perfect. So, so listeners have a task to do, you know, they have to go follow you on social media and I have to make sure they listen to your work as well.
Elle: Yes please!
Mariana: I was reading recently an interview with you on this project Accessible Dreamscapes. You talked about the importance of disabled people being represented as a way of helping people feel less lonely when they are going through difficult times. And I thought that was a really interesting note on how you saw your work in this specific piece. I was wondering, do you have any advice for disabled musicians and disabled artists in general that you have found useful in a way to kinda tackle that sense of loneliness that you yourself said your work was trying to refllect on?
Elle: Um, that is very good question. [both laughing] I think it’s quite hard especially with younger artists. I think disability is something we are constantly being told is for older people. Which is just, hmmm.. If, like what?! [laughing] Yeah, when in reality loads of us are experiencing it by ourselves [[please check]]. I think it’s really hard. I think sometimes joining networks can be helpful if that is your jam with socialising. I know Attitude is Everything has a next stage network where artists can drop in to talk to other artists. And sometimes it helps to hear that You are not the only person experiencing this rubbish thing. [laughing] Aside from that, I would encourage a social actitivy which matches you. Which may be a strange thing to say but human being are social creatures, even though some of us are introverts. I am an introvert! And sometimes being disables locks you right out of the loop. Like with COVID and everybody coming back and a lot of us was still like No, that is not a safe place for me to be in. And sometimes that can feel really incompasing. So, I would say, maybe an odd recommendations, but If game is your thing, find a game and talk to people on the internet. [[please check]]. [laughing]
Mariana: Yeah.
Elle: Safely, of course. Um, but, like, yeah, whatever socialising meeting is for you, like, I would just encourage that, um, whatever way is comfortable, um, and there are people out there, like, it doesn’t feel like it sometimes when you’re the first to get cancer in your friendship group like me. Um, but there are other people that are experiencing these things. Um, and, like, you can read about them or find them and, um, talk to people, um, and, yeah, whatever that socialisation is, whatever that community is for you, like, sometimes people are like, oh, you know, friends online aren’t real friends. I’m like, yes, they are.
Mariana: Yeah, absolutely.
Elle: Definitely are. Um, like, whatever it is for you, with Pokemon Go, go and help. Do your thing. So, I just encourage that, um, that it, the way that we create music and access social things and network does not have to be the same way that disabled artists do it. Um, and that’s really important and valid.
Mariana: Yeah, and yeah, I really liked also that you mentioned kind of the idea of kind of online friendships, kind of the importance of highlighting that those are real friendships.
Elle: Yeah.
Mariana: I know a lot of people that, that, you know, I consider to be friends and people are surprised when I say, oh, I’ve never met them in person. Yeah, never even like had a zoom chat with them. I’ve only ever written and people just say, like, oh, that’s just so weird. You worked with them for years and like, I’m like, yeah, but I just never felt the need and it worked for us for various reasons. And yeah, so it’s really important that people kind of, because sometimes there is an undervaluing of certain interactions.
Elle: Yeah, definitely.
Mariana: And yeah, it’s like finding your own, your own way of navigating things for, for whatever that reason might be. And what is next for you? Do you have, so of course you have Accessible Dreamscapes opening in June. Is there anything else you can tell us a little bit about? Um, so Accessible Dreamscapes being in June also coincides with my EP launch. Yeah. So that’s my, my project I’m working on at the moment. It’s called Penumbra and it’s about sort of the small little bit of light in the darkness, essentially. And it’s sort of more of a cinematic storytelling type EP compared to my previous stuff, which has been still ambient, but not as cinematic. So it’s a new production route for me, which I’ve quite enjoyed actually. And I feel like that’s a bit more niche. It more accurately represents me and how I feel and I hear myself in that music. So I’m excited for that to come out.
Mariana: Oh, that’s really, really exciting. Congratulations.
Elle: Thank you.
Mariana: And there’s a final question that I like asking all of our guests and is what are your hopes for the future of accessibility?
Elle: I think my hopes of future accessibility are for access to being more normalised, but not in a way that desensitises people to access. I feel like currently in the UK, we’re having like a bit more normalisation of access, but it’s still being like stomped on by the government at the same time. I’m allowed to say that?!
Mariana: Yes, yes you are. [both laughin]
Elle: Okay. Yeah. We’re having a bit of that. And I just think it doesn’t need to be like, oh, everybody’s got this thing. So it’s not a thing. It’s like, no, everybody might have a bit of this thing in varying levels and that’s okay. Like, you know, that’s the point. Like the point is that it’s okay. And we, as human beings can do like things too cater for with the people and make other people feel comfortable and we don’t have to like make it smaller than it is like, it’s just like a real realisation about human experience being very different. And that’s a great thing. So, yeah, that’s my hope.
Mariana: Well, thank you very much. And thank you so much for joining us for today’s episode. It’s been great to listen about, to listen to you speak about your work and how we connect to disability and accessibility. And I feel like I have a lot of tasks to do, including following your social media and also listening to more of your work and looking forward to your EP being released, but also wishing you the best, best of luck with Accessible Dreamscapes. It sounds like such a fabulous project and I’m really, really glad to have learned more about it today.
Elle: Oh, thank you so much. It’s been lovely to be here.
Mariana: Thank you.
Mariana: Thank you so much everyone for tuning in for this episode. It’s been a pleasure to be able to interview Elle and hope you’re now heading to the different sites to listen to her music and follow her on social media for updates on her work. Next month, we will be back with another exciting guest and more updates on disability, accessibility and representation in the creative industries. Thank you so much for listening.
