In this episode Mariana interviewed Jonathan Penny, who currently oversees the delivery of subtitles, audio description and signed content for Channel 4's linear and on-demand platforms.
Transcription of the podcast episode:
Mariana: Hi, everyone. Welcome to this new episode of the DARCI Podcast, the podcast on Disability, Accessibility and Representation in the Creative Industries. My name is Mariana Lópes and I’m a professor in sound production and post-production at the School of Arts and Creative Technologies at the University of York in the UK. Today, I have the pleasure of welcoming Jonathan Penny. Jonathan is Channel 4’s Access Services Manager, overseeing the accessibility of programmes across TV and streaming. Prior to this, he led the audio description team at ITV and has also worked as a TV subtitler. A passionate advocate for the needs of deaf and disabled audiences, Jonathan has previously served as a board trustee for the charity VocalEyes and is studying for his Level 2 certificate in British Sign Language. Jonathan lives in Glasgow with his family. Hi, Jonathan. How are you doing today?
Jonathan: Good, thanks. Really good to be here.
Mariana: Well, thank you so much for joining us for today’s episode. And I have some questions for you to learn a bit more about your work on disability and accessibility. And I was wondering, just to get us started, could you tell us a bit about your journey into the field of disability and accessibility?
Jonathan: Of course, yeah. So, the bulk of my experience is in the world of broadcasting and making TV programmes accessible for different, what we call in the industry, kind of access services users. So, the different services being, you know, in the main, subtitles and sign language interpretation, which are aimed at deaf and hearing impaired audiences, and audio description, which, you know, as many listeners will know, is a commentary that makes programmes accessible for people with a visual impairment. So, I started out as a TV subtitler, working on a mixture of pre-recorded and live programmes, which I mentioned because, you know, both have different sort of approaches that the subtitler has to take. The pre-recorded programmes, obviously, you have a lot more time, you know, it’s a combination of what’s called re-speaking technology, which takes this subtitler’s voice and puts that through a speech to text processor. And similarly, with live programmes as well, which are obviously done in real time, but using the same sort of techniques to effectively transcribe, you know, in a more efficient way than typing out really fast, which is what a lot of people think that TV subtitling is about. So, I did that for a bit and then moved on to audio description, where I worked initially as a scripter of audio description, so kind of writing the description that a voiceover artist would then, you know, record later on. And after that, I did voicing myself for a bit before managing a team of describers at ITV. So, ITV had an in-house access services team. I was in charge of kind of training and managing the newer describers that we had, as well as working on a range of sort of, I suppose, quality improvement, you know, different things that we could do, like both around research and around kind of working with our audiences as well to check that the description we were doing was good, but also that we were describing the right programmes or, you know, making sure that we weren’t describing things that people didn’t think needed audio description or was particularly useful to have. And most recently, I’ve worked at Channel 4 for about 18 months now, where I am the access services manager. So, I oversee the creation of audio description, but also subtitles and sign language as well, and closely involved in a lot of those, the workflows around how those services are created, but also doing that broader piece of, you know, trying to promote the services across Channel 4 and also across the wider industry and, you know, making sure that, I guess, being an advocate for accessibility in all forms across the business.
Mariana: Thank you so much. That’s really, really interesting. And it’s great that you also clarified, you know, what an access services manager does. So, that’s great. And I was wondering, I mean, you’ve had a really impressive career working in different fields related to access. And I was wondering what have been some of the most rewarding moments and which ones have been one of the most challenging ones?
Jonathan: Well, it’s a good question. I’m going to give a few answers. So, going back to, you know, when I was still working kind of regularly as an audio describer for TV, I think this kind of question is very, you know, one of the great things about that role for me is that, you know, you hear people, you talk to people, you know, in some lines of work who, you know, frustration when the job sets in, that sort of, you know, maybe the work starts to feel stale, that kind of thing. I felt with audio description, you’re all, you have a protection against that because you always have a constant sort of recycling of programs, if you like, a fresh work list with new challenges, new content to describe, new programs, as well as obviously, you know, you’re watching TV sometimes before members of the public have, which makes you feel a little bit exclusive. [Mariana laughing] But genuinely, I think the role is only ever as good as the most recent program that you’ve worked on.
Mariana: OK.
Jonathan: So, you know, if you had a bad week and you’ve worked on something you didn’t really enjoy, or you found, you know, challenging for whatever reason, you know that the next program you work on could be completely different, could be the best thing that you’ve done all month, you know. So you always have that kind of freshness, I suppose. And I think, you know, sometimes the things that you might really enjoy watching as a viewer yourself are not the things that you really enjoy describing, you know. [Mariana laughing] I certainly remember some shows that I really wanted to watch as a viewer and then actually working on them, because you have to view them in a sort of more analytical way and you end up, you know, you watch it over and over and you maybe see flaws in it that you wouldn’t have done, you know, just as a more casual viewer. [Mariana laughing] But equally, I think the things that you wouldn’t choose to watch end up being, you know, can end up being really rewarding. Like I was never a big soap fan, but I remember working on the audio description for like Peggy Mitchell’s funeral in EastEnders, and it was a huge, you know, obviously she was a character in that show who was around for years, and you know, a kind of British cultural icon, you know, in terms of kind of longevity on that program as well. And her funeral was a huge moment in the EastEnders calendar and getting to kind of, you know, you can imagine funeral procession, so many opportunities for like a program to kind of visit each character and see how they’re reacting while there’s a sort of slow, you know, procession of people and lots of weighty kind of silences to fill with description essentially. And that was a really kind of, you know, I really enjoyed that, even though as a program I didn’t really have much of a connection with that show. But also I think, you know, writing and voicing the description for a few feature films when I worked at ITV, I really enjoyed getting, you know, a film gives you that kind of. It’s very different, you know, different genres have their own challenges with TV description, you know, something like EastEnders, for example, you’ve always got that sort of, you’ve got to think about the continuous nature of it and the continuous, you know, what happened in the episode before my episode and what’s going to happen in the next one and how you’re going to kind of handle the continuity of the description, I suppose, whereas something like a film, you know, you’ve got your kind of hard bookends, anything that happens in that film, you’ve got sort of soul-like responsibility for conveying that in description. So that’s something that’s quite freeing in TV description, I think. And I really enjoyed working on Fargo, Inglourious Bastards, one of the Star Wars films that came out on TV when I worked at ITV as well, because I think, you know, especially, I mean, all three of those really, but it’s probably especially Star Wars, you know, it has such a fan following of fans who are so knowledgeable about, you know, types of weaponry, types of, you know, minor characters, types of aircraft, spaceship, whatever as well. [Mariana laughing] You know, you’ve got to get that detail right and make sure that you’re kind of, you know, doing it justice to the material, really, I suppose.
Mariana: And can I ask you, how do you get ready then, if you’re not a huge Star Wars fan and your job is to audio describe it, how do you get ready to not get the details of this aircraft wrong, call it the wrong thing? How do you get ready?
Jonathan: I think there’s just a lot of prep goes into it, you know, I mean, any kind of audio description or, you know, all kinds of, you know, access service provider have, you know, you have these kind of, an idea of how long a particular project should take you, but I think with films, well, with audio description in general, but also with films, I think that just goes out the window because you know, there’s going to be, you know, it’s going to take you probably upwards of 12 hours, you know, writing a script for a film, I would say. And that’s not all kind of sitting, thinking what to write, a lot of that time is like going off and doing your own research, you know, easier probably for us in a TV setting when a film has probably already, you know, almost certainly already been released in the cinema, it’s going to have a kind of a fan life online, you know, there are so many good kind of like wikis for fans to talk about films when they’ve been released and, you know, you can find, there’s an absolute treasure trove of information online that can help if you’re not, you know, you don’t have that information in your head already as like a super fan or something, but I think it’s just, yeah, a lot of prep and also just chatting to fellow describers as well, you know, that’s one of the best things about working in a team like that is that you can share those sort of questions that might be, as you say, specific to the content, you know, around a spaceship or a weapon or something that someone else might just happen to know, [Mariana laughing] but also, you know, I think with general things like, oh, you know, I’ve got these three people, I need to situate them in a, … Well, how am I going to structure this description to make sure I can get all of the right information across? So I guess that’s another of my rewarding, you know, moments, I would say, is like being able to manage a team and train a team of new describers when I went to ITV as well, I would say that’s, you know, … Because there’s nothing like, there’s nothing to enhance your own sort of skills as a describer than trying to explain them to someone else who is new to it as well, it kind of helps you crystallise a lot of things in your mind that you maybe didn’t know you thought, but you’re suddenly on the spot trying to explain it to someone and you think, oh, actually, yeah, that’s a really good question, how would I approach that? And it helps you kind of, you know, I’m sure anyone who’s got experience in training people will agree that it gives you a chance to kind of, yeah, I suppose, formulate your own approach to different things and also to be, you know, to have people ask questions that actually, do you know what, I’ve never thought of that, that’s a really good kind of new approach to a problem that you had maybe experienced before. And part two, challenging. I suppose, I think a lot, you know, a lot of, beyond access services, TV, accessibility and all that, any person who works in the field of sort of trying to make something accessible will have this kind of common challenge with me that I think, you know, there’s such a, you know, the world of accessibility, there’s so many fantastic, passionate advocates for, you know, inclusion, equity, making things more accessible for an audience, whatever audience that is, but often in a business context that comes with challenges because sometimes, you know, it’s about finding money for something, it’s about persuading people who don’t have the same maybe inherent drive towards the same, you know, people have different goals, different teams have different goals, I think that’s something that I’ve occasionally found a challenge is when you’re, you know, having to justify something that you just think should be the way that things are done, you know what I mean? And I think that’s probably common, you know, I’m sure higher education research as well, but, you know, any industry that listeners might be from as well, I think that’s a common frustration in the world of accessibility. But it’s a good, you know, it’s a good challenge. And I think as I kind of mature as well in my, you know, having gone from a sort of being a foot soldier, if you like, doing, you know, doing, working on programs to now, you know, being in more of a position where I’m doing more management and kind of strategy as well, I think it’s a good challenge to try and, you know, to try and rise to because it’s in persuading people at this level that you’re going to be affecting change for the people who come after, I suppose, as well. And obviously, thinking about workers, I suppose, from that sense of, like, you know, enhancing a service, but also, you know, most importantly, thinking about how that service is enhanced for the users as well and the audiences that it’s aimed at.
Mariana: Yeah, I think that’s a really good point that you touched upon, kind of, sometimes working in accessibility, there’s a kind of a high percentage of the job that is actually convincing people that this is actually important because you always have a kind of a proportion of people that are already super engaged that, you know, they absolutely understand this is important and they want to be better and they want to learn more. But there’s always going to be, as you say, people that, you know, this is not something they think about and they might kind of the first thing definitely with enhanced audio description, one of the questions we get a lot is, yes, but this sounds like it’s going to cost me money and why would I’m going to do something? Why am I going to do it if it costs me money? And there’s kind of that defensive mechanism that sometimes kind of clicks in.
Jonathan: Yeah.
Mariana: And it gets quite, you know, that’s where communication skills are really important to actually unpack things for people and say, well, actually, no, you know, you do this and this to get ready, actually, it’s not going to cost you more, it might cost you less, etc. So, I’m glad that that came up. And I’m glad that you’re seeing it as a positive challenge, something that, you know, it’s good to be working on overcoming.
Jonathan: Yeah. And I think as well, you know, you touched on a really good point there as well around that, I think, again, is common to, you know, whether you’re talking to a developer who’s trying to persuade a product team to do more in terms of web accessibility and kind of digital enhancements to product and stuff like that. Like, I think so often it’s the case that this would have been cheaper if we built it in from the start, you know, trying to make a website or a service kind of accessible after it’s been launched. And obviously, then it is harder to make tweaks and to change things because they come with, you know, whereas if something’s designed by, you know, it’s this equity by design thing, isn’t it? Like it’s certainly building in from the start is often a sort of simpler process-wise, but also, you know, potentially can make things cheaper as well. And also, you know, do it right the first time and fewer sort of, you know, iterative fixes down the line as well.
Mariana: Yeah, absolutely. And in addition to kind of all your work on film and TV, you have also worked as a freelance audio describer for theatre and opera. And I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about what you found were the differences, strengths, weaknesses of each method, because something that I often, but this is a personal opinion, of course, for me, in the work that I do, I’ve also, I’ve always found a lot of inspiration in audio description for theatre and access in theatre more generally, because I think a lot of more kind of varied approaches have been taken throughout the years. And I have also always thought that it has to do with the fact that, you know, theatre is less structured than film and TV. As you know, film and TV kind of follows very kind of strict workflows. So if things are done in a certain order, certain teams do certain things, and it’s done in this way. Whereas theatre, you know, a company can in a way carve their own way of working that is suitable for a certain production or a certain team. And I was wondering, have you found similar things? Or what is your experience about the differences?
Jonathan: Yeah, good question. And I think, you know, you’re right, I’ve always enjoyed both the contrast, I suppose, as well, there, you know, and I think, especially now, … It’s always been a nice way, I’ve found to have a more direct contact with the audience, you know, because any, you know, whether it’s a access services provider, or a broadcaster, whatever, you know, everyone kind of is in touch with audiences, but it’s often not in a as direct a way, you know, if you’re describing something in the theatre, you literally take that person’s arm and lead them around the stage beforehand. Or, you know, that’s something that’s sometimes offered, you can chat to them at the interval, you will talk to them afterwards. And if they didn’t like it, they’ll tell you, you know, that’s a really direct, you know.
Mariana: Direct feedback.
Jonathan: Aha! But you know, that’s … and more often than not, you know, I shouldn’t, couldn’t be doing myself out of a job. And it is praise, you know, it’s or it’s, you know, it’s a discussion about something that came up, and maybe you know, you need to clarify something, or you just just talking about the general sort of, you know, maybe there was something you didn’t have time to describe fully, when it happened, but you can you can pick up on that. But having that kind of direct, you know, interaction with users is so valuable. And even if it is, you know, if there is a critical comment, or, you know, constructive feedback, or whatever, it’s good to have it, you know, it’s great to have it. And I’ve always enjoyed that, you know, contrast to the way that you would typically receive feedback for the TV, which is going to be, you know, by the nature of it isn’t it’s not going to be you’re not going to ring ring someone up immediately after the program has been on. [Mariana laughing] But you know, it’ll be an after broadcast later on or whatever, you know, via something more, maybe more structured, like a focus group or something like that. But I think there is also that, yeah, there’s a there’s a fundamental kind of difference in approach, I suppose, which I think, you know, there’s probably, there’s probably a lot of reasons for that, I think, you know, as you say, the processes are very different, you know, a theatre, or a, you know, theatre company, whether it’s the venue, or the artists arranging it, you know, will engage an individual describer or two, perhaps, you know, who will probably be working towards, perhaps one performance, one or two performances out of a run. So they have a kind of a, you know, maybe a week to write their script, maybe they will get access to, you know, some, you mentioned opera, I know, in my experience of working with Scottish opera, you know, the describers are there from the start from the sort of early rehearsal stage, being able to, go and visit models of the set and go and handle the costumes while they’re still being designed, you know, it can be that can be months before the show is on the stage, and they’re already getting that chance to kind of not not be writing their description, but start kind of crafting the the idea of the show, the conception of it, the, you know, the language that they might use in the sort of the supplementary materials, that kind of thing to kind of convey all of the breadth of work that’s gone into that. And I think in a TV setting, it’s much more compressed, you know, it is, it’s, the process is usually done in a short, much shorter time span, you know, a day probably for an episode of something, it’d be done as part of someone’s work day, whether we’re working on a mix of different programmes. And it’s also done, there’s two reasons as well, I guess, but for that kind of more, I don’t want to say mechanical, but you know, kind of, it’s like a factory, it’s like a construction line, almost, you know, there’s a, there’s an element of, that’s driven by the systems that are used, I think, you know, going from theatre to theatre or then, you know, an art gallery or whatever different venues, you know, a describer will be using a piece of kit that is either hired in or is unique to that venue, or, you know, it’s very much a kind of, you could, you could tweak something and it wouldn’t have very many kind of negative impacts down the line, it’s a microphone that is broadcasting to a set of 20 headsets, you know, whereas in TV description, you know, there’s a lot more structure, there’s different, you know, media getting from A to B, the access provider making the service that has to be to a certain technical spec, like it’s a lot more formal and structured, I guess. And I suppose, in one sense, that does, you know, that can, you know, hamper the kind of creativity that you talk about in terms of a stage production, where there might be, oh, actually, you know, at a late stage, maybe, let’s, let’s change that, let’s have the person on stage say that line about describing themselves instead of the audio describer have to say, you know, there’s room for that kind of, probably, you know, realistically, in more smaller kind of productions, rather than something that’s like a big touring thing or something like that. But there is certainly that freedom to experiment with a more integrated approach, I suppose. And I think that’s something that because as well, because, you know, TV description, and all the access services really are made because of, you know, they have a legal quota to fulfil as well. And there are elements of that that has, you know, detail about the technical format that is delivered to play out or to streaming services or whatever, but also around, you know, some of the features around kind of tone of voice being used and different things that can be described or shouldn’t be described. And I think that there’s probably, you know, I know that something that we might talk about later is around the changes that Ofcom has been making to its best practice guidance. And I think that’s probably something that it’s worth, you know, accessibility in a cultural setting isn’t as, you know, there aren’t the same quotas there. Yeah, there’s a kind of, you know, a lot of venues and a lot of touring productions would want to offer accessibility, but it’s not kind of reported on in the same way that broadcasters have to kind of submit, you know, number of hours to Ofcom and how much of it was accessible. And it’s kind of held to account in a stricter way as well. So I suppose that probably does mean there’s a slight, you know, difference in terms of the freedom to experiment in a theatre or a cultural setting is probably a bit greater, I guess is what I’m trying to say.
Mariana: Yeah, I think so much. That’s really, really interesting. I hadn’t thought about, yeah, thinking about quotas and people kind of, you know, hopefully wanting to do more than the quotas, but actually that being something that they need to think about in terms of reporting back. And since you’ve mentioned the new Ofcom best practice guidelines for television and on demand services, I was wondering if you could tell us what are the main takeaways for you from those new guidelines?
Jonathan: Yeah, how long have you got? [Mariana laughing] There’s a lot in there, isn’t there? I think probably, you know, in terms of this discussion as well, probably one of the most relevant bits is this sort of slight softening in terms of some of the requirements that used to be in there around some very detailed sort of elements, for example, with subtitling, though, you know, I won’t go into too much detail, but there was, you know, around reading speed of subtitles and how long they should sort of remain on screen in order to be readable at a certain word per minute rate, which has been softened to kind of reflect the fact that I think now, you know, most subtitle users prefer to have the speed of the subtitles kind of more accurately reflect the speed of the speech. So if something is very fast, the subtitle kind of matches that, even if that means it goes above the sort of, you know, whatever word per minute rate. And I think that kind of relaxing that gives subtitlers and subtitle providers the opportunity to, you know, keep… Over the years, there’s been a shift from a sort of what, you know, subtitles in the UK used to be more heavily edited to kind of, you know, allow for different reading speeds and not simplify, but kind of sometimes paraphrase the language. And I think now it’s recognised that, you know, users want a verbatim, want subtitles to be verbatim. So, you know, different in a live context, again, where sometimes, you know, a speaker might not speak in proper sentences, and you might need to sort of, you know, change things slightly to simplify, or if they stumble over their words, you know, you’re not going to, it wouldn’t be sort of, a live subtitler might not kind of word for word transcribe that stumble or hesitancy or whatever. But in a pre-recorded programme, I think now the move has been so much towards like going for that verbatim, you know, especially when it’s a single speaker, sometimes when there are multiple people speaking over each other, it’s still, you know, you need to kind of just for clarity of being able to read it as well, it’s still sometimes minor kind of changes required. But I think that sort of softening of the word per minute rule means that, you know, there is more of that, there’s one fewer obstacle to that, I suppose, to that kind of verbatim approach. And I think with AD as well, in terms of the kind of language around tone of voice, for example, like I think there used to be more of a prescription around, you know, making the AD sound quite neutral in tone, in terms of the tone of the describer’s voice. And now, you know, that’s kind of relaxed as well. And I think, you know, we see that in programmes from different broadcasters where, you know, the tone of the description can match the tone of the programme, you know. Naked Attraction is one Channel 4 programme that I think is probably worth mentioning here, where the tone of writing of the AD and the tone of voicing deliberately kind of matches the quite fun, you know, slightly irreverent tongue-in-cheek nature of the programme, which, you know, in case people don’t know, is a sort of nudity-based dating show, can I say, where people, you know, there’s a contestant on there who’s choosing between a number of different potential suitors, I guess. [Mariana laughing] But they see, they don’t know anything about the person, they see them progressively, you know, see their body from the feet up until they see their head and eventually, you know, meet them and go on a date. I think they do go on a date with their clothes on. [Mariana laughing] But there’s a lot of challenges in there, I think, around ..
Mariana: Thanks for clarifying that. [Mariana laughing]
Jonathan: Yeah. There’s a lot of, you know, challenges in terms of like how bodies are described and different language around, sensitive language, I suppose, around body parts as well. And I think because the tone of the show is so, you know, inclusive and, but also fun and irreverent, like I think that’s a, there’s a balance to be struck there. And having the AD be able to sort of toe that line as well and lean in when it’s, you know, when there is a lighter-hearted moment and allow the voice to really kind of match that as well, I think, you know, definitely gives users a better experience and more, an experience that matches, you know, it’s not just about going back to that sort of regulation point before, I guess. It’s not, you know, I think now so many, for all, certainly all the main, you know, UK broadcasters, it is so, we are so far from it just being a, oh, well, we’ve got a, you know, regulation, we’ve got slap AD on at the end, you know, tick that box. It’s much more about like how that service, yes, the service is regulated, it has to be there on X percent of programs, whatever, but it’s about making a service that delivers that experience for the audience that it’s aimed at and kind of matches the tone of the program as well. And I think that’s, you know, this kind of softening in the best practice guidelines around kind of tone of voice and also around different language that’s used in physical description, for example, I think really helps to achieve that.
Mariana: Oh, thank you so much. That’s a great, great answer with lots of really great examples that people can explore as well. And kind of connected to that, you’ve done quite a lot of work on researching how to describe diversity. And I was wondering what were your main findings and what would you suggest for to academic to start to audio describers and students looking into good practice?
Jonathan: Yeah, this is a really interesting topic and one that’s kind of I think for all, well, I know, I know outside the UK as well, but I think especially within the UK in the last sort of four or five years has been, you know, a hot topic, like, you know, it’s something that’s touched, I think, in TV especially, but I know also in other kind of creative industries, you know, where descriptions used as well. And it’s a really interesting, it’s a really interesting area that I think it’s one of the sort of, you know, equity, diversity, inclusion, isn’t often, you know, this, this idea of representation, I suppose, isn’t often or isn’t immediately thought about in terms of how that, how that reaches blind people. So, you know, you think about a conference presentation, a panel discussion or something like that, you know, if someone who is, you know, has a visible diversity characteristic, might be the colour of their skin, for example, talks about a topic and they’re bringing their own sort of experience to bear on that topic, any non-blind person in the audience sort of, there’s an inherent kind of understanding of that because they see that person, they see what they look like, they understand the sort of, you know, what experience that person is bringing to their point of view. And that’s something that, you know, now often at events and things, you know, people do kind of give that slight sort of physical description as an opening of their, you know, of their talk, because I think it allows people to, you know, it might be the fact that they’re in a wheelchair, it might be, you know, it might be a loud shirt that they’re wearing, you know, and someone makes a joke about it. And if that’s kind of not voiced in some way, I guess, whether it’s by, you know, usually at that sort of event, it would be by them or whether it’s, you know, in the context of audio description in a piece of content by an audio describer. And that information is kind of withheld from AD users. And I think going back, you know, sort of AD in the UK has been around for over 20 years now, but I think the journey of how diversity is conveyed in audio description, I think has changed because of how, you know, the progress that’s happened in the programmes themselves, I think it’s been led by the sort of move away from, you know, kind of quite dated portrayals of people with visible diversity characteristics, might be someone disabled, or, you know, someone who’s got a visible disability, or, you know, thinking about kind of different ethnicities being portrayed in programmes as well. And, you know, whether that is, it’s about authentic portrayal, I think, you know, not just having a character who has a different skin colour than the remainder of the cast, but they’re sort of, they’re there as a stereotype or a kind of stereotypic portrayal of that kind of, you know, that kind of person. And moving to a more, you know, portrayal that’s kind of more incidental, that’s more diverse, that’s more representative, I guess, of, you know, Britain today. And I think there used to be, in audio description, often, I think, because, you know, as you know, and many kind of many listeners will know, with TV description, you don’t generally have, you don’t have the choice of what space to describe in, you know, your, the programme comes to you finished, and the description is kind of inserted into the available gaps. And we can come back to this later. And I know, we’ll chat about that approach later. But that means that you often, you know, you might have a new character coming in midway through a scene, where there’s dialogue up to the point they come in, and you don’t have time to kind of adequately tell the users what they look like, what that person looks like. And I think because of that sort of patchiness of like, you know, well, we can’t say what every person looks like, there was often a sort of reticence to say what everyone looked like in a lot of detail, you know, you may have time to mention their hair colour or mention their, you know, clothes they’re wearing, whatever, but getting into a full sort of physical description, wasn’t something, you didn’t have that luxury to do for every character, you know. So I think what would often happen is that you then end up falling into this trap where you’re kind of not describing everyone physically, but then when someone, there was often a sort of attempt to kind of describe whether it was disability or race or whatever, if it was in relation to the plot. So if it was like a programme that was particularly around,
Mariana: Oh I see.
Jonathan: … for example, apartheid in South Africa, you know, there would obviously be a, you’d have a real kind of plot related editorial need to convey, you know, everyone’s race, for example. But I think in other situations, there’s a danger that that can fall into a sort of, you know, you’re saying there’s a default of whiteness, for example, and then you’re describing, you’re kind of othering people by saying, you know, when someone’s not white. And I think now, you know, that has really changed. And there’s definitely much more of, you know, listening to new AD that’s getting created. And, you know, speaking to people and teams, colleagues in the industry as well, I know that it’s much more of a, you know, there’s a real desire now, I suppose, to extend any representation that a non-blind viewer would feel from watching a programme to AD users as well, to blind audiences as well. Because I think we want, you know, if the programme makers have gone to that effort to, you know, portray people in a particular way and cast particular people in these roles, I think we want to make sure that the description where it has space to can extend that representation to AD users too. I think making sure that someone listening to the audio description feels seen, if you like, you know. And I think bearing in mind that we’ve always got, you know, we’ve always got to choose what information we, we’re not going to have time to say everything within the timing constraints of a programme, but I think it’s about bearing in mind that that information, the colour of that person’s skin, whatever it might be, is always going to be of interest to someone. Audio description is always about balancing, you know, there’s an example I always use when I’m talking about things like this, which is to do with cars and make some models of cars, you know. It depends on what programme you’re describing as to whether you’re going to go down to that level of detail, you know. If it’s a, you know, episode of EastEnders, for example, it might only be relevant to say that it’s a posh car or, you know, a car, like a high-end car, like a sports car, that’s obviously probably going to be making a statement about the person driving it. But if it’s just a car, you can just say a car. Whereas if you sort of say, oh, it’s a green Ford Focus or whatever, you know, sometimes there’s a danger of overloading users with information that’s, you know, maybe they’ll then be thinking, oh, that’s, wonder why that’s, why that’s important that it’s a Ford Focus, you know. Whereas if you’re describing a film like Fast and Furious, the audience is probably, you know, on balance, most of the people listening to that are probably going to be interested in more detail of what the car is beyond its make and model. And again, this would be an area where I’d have to go in and do lots of research before describing a film like that. [Mariana laughing] But, you know, some people will be interested in that. And I think it’s the same with kind of diversity information as well. I think it’s, there’s always going to be some people who are going to, some people in the audience who are going to be interested to know that. And I think having that, I suppose, relaxation of like, it doesn’t have to be an all or nothing. It doesn’t have to be a kind of, you know, you’ve got to do that for everyone before you can do it for anyone, if you know what I mean. I think it’s just a kind of, we give fuller descriptions where we can, sometimes there is no time to give any description and that’s kind of okay. It’s got to be dictated by the programme. I think as well, it’s always worth mentioning that these kind of conversations, sort of collaborative conversations between describers about different bits of challenging content, this is all sort of improved and enhanced by having more diverse teams doing the describing, you know, that kind of representation that can be around race, it can be around disability, you know, even I know now there’s many more blind people as well working within the field of audio description, either in, you know, voicing or QC or sometimes writing as well. And I think having a kind of, the best way to sort of avoid that sense of otherness creeping into our writing and voicing of audio description as well is making sure that there’s a, there’s a diversity in the teams that are doing the describing.
Mariana: Thank you very much. That’s really, really informative and I’m sure it’s going to be really great use for many people, especially, but I was going to say, especially people starting out, but I think it’s for everyone really to kind of keep thinking about these topics. And you hinted on talking a little bit about, I’m assuming you were referring to character descriptions, which is something you’ve done a lot of work on. And I was wondering if you could tell us, because it’s a fairly newish concept. What are character descriptions for people that haven’t come across them?
Jonathan: Sure. I think probably it’s another good example of practices being shared across different areas of audio description, different industries of audio description, if you like, because, you know, anyone going to see a theatre show or, you know, whatever, you know, from probably the last sort of 30 plus years in the UK will have probably been offered the chance to have an audio introduction before the show began. So this is, for anyone who doesn’t know, it’s a kind of spoken introduction that the describer would deliver, like before the show begins, where the user gets a chance to hear the visuals of the show set up and described in a way that isn’t constrained by time, you know, it’s just the describer talking. It’s kind of like a pre-concert talk if you would go to a classical concert or something like that, where, … But in this kind of audio introduction, the describer would typically talk about the setting, like giving the kind of context to the play or whatever that you might get from the programme. You know, sometimes it can compensate for the fact that programmes aren’t always available digitally or, you know, as sound files as well, so there can be a chance to sort of read out the synopsis, information about the cast, that kind of thing, but mainly the main sort of nuts and bolts of it, I guess, would be a sort of visual description of different sets used throughout the piece, and also a chance to give that kind of full, unbridled description of every character as well, and, you know, without worrying about the constraints of time. And I think there’s been, you know, I think in the last, yeah, two and a bit years probably, a lot of different broadcasters beginning to experiment with this, you know. When I worked at ITV, we did one of the first ones of these, which was to a drama called Trigger Point, where we did a lot of research with a kind of user group, a focus group, I suppose, of blind and visually impaired users before releasing It’s Into the wild, where we were looking at things like, you know, what would you want something like this to contain? How long would you want it to be? When would you want to watch it? How would you want to watch it? You know, when would you want to watch it in relation to watching the programme? Do you want to watch it right before the programme is broadcast, or would you watch it two weeks ahead, four weeks ahead? All this sort of, you know, this kind of trying to build a picture, I guess, of, you know, how to make something like this, how to justify making it, but also the ways in which to, you know, for example, one of the things that was clear in my mind pretty early on, thinking about, you know, storing this, you know, we’re in a world at the moment where, you know, it’s easy for, so easy for anyone to just make a video and put on YouTube. Like, it’s a way of kind of, it almost democratises that content creation perspective, but also in terms of people accessing it as well, you know, the vast majority, not everyone, but you know, a majority of audiences will find it easy to access something on YouTube, and that felt like a good, you know, it was pretty clear early on that this was not going to be something that we were going to be able to play out over TV, like five minutes before the programme went on, because there’s just too many kind of complexities there, and also around, you know, it not being possible to kind of direct that only to users, AD users, you know, so it was around trying to put something somewhere that people could self-serve effectively, and I think that’s, you know, you see that mirrored in, you know, a lot of, again, like coming back to cultural venues as well, who might put a programme note available as an audio file on their website for people to access in their own time before coming, you know, and I think that was our sort of, that was what we found in that research process, was that actually there isn’t one, you know, it’s true of so many things in, you know, working with different kind of access audiences as well, I think, there isn’t one answer, there isn’t one, you know, …
Mariana: Yeah.
Jonathan: … golden bullet, if you like, silver bullet, that’s gonna, you know, solve all those problems. People want different things, and what you, I think, just, you’ve got to, it gave us the push, I guess, to just like, right, well, we’ve got to just do something, put it out there, you know, follow these different things from the research, but actually, you know, use it as a way of getting feedback as well, and use that to, because there’s only so much with a small focus group as well, that you can simulate and learn. What we needed to do was just do something, a proof of concept, if you like, and kind of use it as a way of, you know, refining and building on the service as well, and it’s been great to see, you know, I know, like RTE, for example, Sky as well now, I think, have been doing, you know, experimenting with these, and I hope, you know, continuing to kind of get feedback from audiences as well around how they’re working, and there are so many different sort of features that you can discuss in relation to this, like we, because we were doing these as videos for the ITV trigger point, you know, example that I mentioned, we had this immediate, like, consideration that, oh, well, it’s going to be visual as well, you know, it doesn’t have to just be an audio thing, it can be something visual that sort of has the dual benefit of, like, making, giving someone who’s maybe has low vision, but isn’t, you know, completely blind, …
Mariana: Yeah.
Jonathan: … a chance to kind of visually register a character as well by having an image, or maybe slow motion footage of that character, but where they’re, you know, on their device, or whatever, they’re listening to a description of that character, but they’re also seeing an image of them, probably for longer than you might in a typical shot in a program, you know, if it’s kind of hanging onto that image for 15, 20 seconds while they’re being described, and I think, you know, that has a couple of benefits, it can mean that they’re more likely to recognise that character within the program as well on their own, without, you know, maybe there’s moments when the audio description can’t say anything, and, but if that person has already formed a sort of recognition relationship with that character, I suppose, that’s, I think that’s got a really strong benefit, but also having it as something that is a visual piece of content means, you know, we’re in this world now where every program has kind of a lot of digital promotion material, a lot of kind of spin-off social media content as well, and I think it gives us, you know, as a broadcaster, a chance to kind of lean into that and say, well, actually, this is, yeah, this is aimed, this is made with one particular audience in mind, you know, the AD users, but also it can be potentially something that’s of interest to lots of other people. I think we see that with kind of these behind-the-scenes interviews that always do really well on, you know, relate to different shows, like where a cast member might give viewers a tour of, like, behind the set of Hollyoaks, for example, or something like that, you know, this is things that, because it feels kind of exclusive and interesting, you know, I think it’s something that can appeal to a wider audience as well, and I think that’s one of the best sort of things that can be said of accessibility in general, is that it can enhance the experience for the whole audience, not just the sort of the audience that you think it’s being made for, if that makes sense.
Mariana: Well, thank you very much. That was a great explanation, and I’m really glad you mentioned your work at Triggerpoint, because this year, when I was teaching accessibility to film and television for visually impaired audiences, I actually played the clip to my students to get them, give them a feel for what character descriptions were, so, and I definitely went to that YouTube link to play it through. The next thing I wanted to ask you is, can you tell us about any new exciting projects that you’re working on?
Mariana: Yeah, I think, so, audio introductions, you know, it feels like we’re still at audio introductions, character descriptions, whatever you want to call them, you know, channel four, we’re still sort of working out how best to land those, I think, you know, it’s something that I’ve experimented with a couple of times, still trying to sort of get the word out and, you know, see which programs they are best to enhance. We’re, you know, we’ve got a couple of, couple of shows coming up, I think, you know, in the autumn, Bake Off, Married at First Sight, like, things that are, you know, big kind of juggernauts of shows that I think always, you know, in terms of accessibility in general, offer us a big chance to make sure that we get it right, make sure that we can make the audio description or the sign language or subtitles, whatever, available for people to watch the content when it suits them. So I’m looking forward to that. Also, you know, at the moment, we’re very busy kind of getting our access services offering for the Paralympics ready, which is a really exciting thing that’s been a part of Channel 4’s broadcast calendar for a long time now. And I think, you know, it’s always a great chance for us to look at our whole access services offering and make sure that, you know, this is huge kind of disability content, you know, but it’s also just a huge sporting moment. And I think any moment like that, that we’re broadcasting, we’re always looking at how to make sure that we can make it as accessible as we can. I think… a reminder as well that of the prominence that the Paralympics has taken on in the minds of the viewing audience as well, you know, the our TV audience and the British public in general, I think it’s a great example of what can happen when accessibility is put centre stage.
Mariana: Yeah, thank you very much. And I have a last question I like asking everyone. And the question is, what are your hopes for the future of accessibility?
Jonathan: Well, that’s a good question. I think I mean, it feels at the moment in sort of broadcast the world of broadcast program accessibility. We’ve we’ve got so many good examples at the moment of really good collaboration happening across sort of broadcasters, access service providers as well. I think there’s a real recognition that there are some bits of TV in any industry, I guess, where, you know, in a sense, you’re you’re in competition with people, you’re you’re competing for a share of the audience for your programs. You know, there’s that kind of competing to get rights for different programs or to commission them. But I think I think accessibility access services is not one of those areas. You know, I think there’s there’s a fantastic sense of collaboration between, you know, there are there are many people like me who’ve moved between different companies and, you know, continue to have kind of really good working on personal relationships with with former colleagues as well. And I think that really kind of allows for greater experimentation in a way, because we’re all, you know, live audio description, for example, you know, has been done in quite quick succession in the last year or so by ITV, by the BBC, you know, kind of provided live audio description for Strictly for the first time this year, which has been a huge success and and even won them an award for that for kind of that that extending that accessibility to the live experience rather than the sort of catch up or, you know, being able to experience it after the broadcast. And Channel 4, we’ve been we’ve been working on that as well. And I think that’s a really good example of something that hasn’t been developed in isolation and kept as a secret as a kind of, you know, oh, we’re going to do this. We’re going to learn how to do this and do it for ourselves. But actually something that there’s a recognition that that that benefits all audiences, you know, or the the AD audiences is not different at ITV to Channel 4. There are people who watch everyone watches different channels, you know. So having that kind of willingness to share best practice, but also kind of innovation and things like that as well, I think is a is it feels like a very positive time in the industry, I think. And I suppose as well, I think I just hope that that spirit of innovation and collaboration continues and particularly, you know, I guess innovation, I mean, in terms of technical things that can happen as well, but also looking at kind of quality and making sure that we’re always picking the right things to make accessible. And obviously, like you alluded to earlier, that, you know, so many of the broadcasters in the UK are, you know, while it’s kind of quota driven, you know, so many broadcasters are going way above those quotas. And I think making sure that we’re applying the services to the right programs and also looking at how audiences actually, you know, how they’re being received by audiences as well. I think as long as that sort of, you know, quality control and reception study kind of continues through that sort of as the services are, you know, adapted or uplifted or whatever, I think that we’re, you know, the accessibility sort of flame is in safe hands.
Mariana: Oh, thank you very much. That is an excellent point. So a future of more, even more collaboration and innovation, but also kind of interaction with audiences as well. So that all seems very, very, very nice and positive. Thank you so much, Jonathan, for sharing all your insights into the field of disability and accessibility, both in terms of film and television, but also your insights into theatre and other cultural venues. It’s been a delight to be able to interview you today. And thank you so much for sharing everything with us.
Jonathan: Thanks. A pleasure to talk to you.
Mariana: Thank you so much, everyone for listening. We’ll be back next month with a brand new interview and more exciting news on disability, accessibility and representation in the creative industries.
